Phantom Blade Zero Interview: A discussion with Soulframe Liang on creating the Wuxia Action genre

RPG Site: To start things off - I'm James from RPG Site; and you go by Soulframe, correct?

S: Yeah, Soulframe. You can just call me S. The "S" of S-Game. [chuckles]

RPG Site: I feel like one thing that stood out to me about how, like, Phantom Blade Zero has been presented over the last years. It's been all over the place, all over the globe. It was at Summer Game Fest, It was at Gamescom, it was at Tokyo Game Show. Now it's here at the Game Awards and the surrounding events. So, I get the impression that a lot of players, especially RPG players, in the West have grown to recognize Phantom Blade Zero; but, I'm curious what the team feels about this worldwide approach and what led to it. Because it's very striking how hard you guys have been pushing for showcasing the game, worldwide.

S: So, Phantom Blade Zero is actually our 1st big console game - but it's also our 1st approach to go to the global market, previously we only did mobile games for the Chinese market. The style we are creating for Phantom Blade Zero is called Kung fu punk, where we incorporate our traditional Kung fu and Chinese culture with modern fashion elements, like steampunk, cyberpunk, some fashion elements, and with which we hope our game can be recognized as a global brand. We don't have anything like cultural obstacles there. It's a story about revenge and hatred and love and such; so I think it's a pretty universal story and style, and we hope our game can be recognized across the globe.

So, we are glad that when we showcase our game at events like Tokyo Game Show or Gamescom, or Summer Game Fest last year - so many players, even without any background with any Chinese culture, or Wuxia culture, or Kung fu culture, they still love the game. I think that's what we were hoping for.

RPG Site: In a few words, can you describe what the team-you use the word kung fu punk. What would you describe as Phantom Blade Zero's main genres, main inspirations? Because the way I see it, the team's developing and releasing this game in a very interesting time for the industry where you see these, like, these emerging developers out of like China, out of Korea. Obviously, we had games like Lies of P, we had games like Stellar Blade, and Black Myth Wukong, and earlier this year Wuchang. It's interesting to see all these games coming out at the same time. Did the team realize this was happening when you started development, or is it just a happy coincidence?

S: Actually, the whole plan for development started back in 2017.

RPG Site: Oh my.

S: So the original concept was developed from then, but the full scale development was since 2022, actually. In 2022 and then 2023, when we 1st debuted our game via a PlayStation State of Play, we didn't know anything about this trend or anything about these other new studios coming to the center of the stage, or something like that. But, we suddenly found out that maybe something is happening. Both in terms of the world and also in China, and there's 2 trends.

One is some new studios with experience, but also with ambitions going to do their own game. Everywhere, like in China, or in Japan and Korea, and in France, right? What we saw the day before yesterday, at the awards. I think that's a trend that with new technologies and new methods of developing, people can work in a more efficient way. So the smaller teams can have their opportunity to do something really big and something really polished.

Also, there's another trend in China, which is that many studios are shifting from mobile games to big console and PC games. Because China now has become the biggest single market for PC gaming; if you check out Steam, they are always like 30% Chinese players. So we already have the largest market, but we didn't have enough of the product coming out from Chinese studios in the past.

So now, more and more Chinese studios are shifting from mobile, and they use the resources gained from the mobile market and then use them in the console market, which I think is good. We are proud to be a part of both trends.

RPG Site: You mentioned that S-Game is a smaller team - and I know it's like a hot button topic after last night - Expedition 33 won. Exactly how big is S-Game as a development team?

S: Yeah, actually, we now have 140 people, 100 people in Beijing or the headquarters and 20 people in Shanghai are in the motion cap studio and animators, and we have another 16 people in Hong Kong. Which is our creative art team. Our overseas team is here in LA. Dealing with publishing global publishing. So, we have 140 people in total spread across countries and 4 cities.

RPG Site: Moving back to the actual game, Phantom Blade Zero, what are some of the inspirations that like previous games in the industry? Because China, in terms of development, is a developing market. What sort of, like, previous games, either internationally or domestically might have inspired the team's development?

S: There are so many games in the industry. Basically, we're kind of merging archetypes together, two main genres together. Ones like the so-called "Soulslike" or "Souls Game". So there are tons of "Souls game" from FromSoftware, or other Soulslike games. We borrow some part of the, like, level designs and some art style. On the other hand, hack-and-slash classics, like Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, or Metal Gear Rising.

So, we are borrowing inspirations from both sides and trying to merge them together to create something new. Another very important source of inspiration are Chinese Kung fu movies, which we feel haven't been expressed and adapted enough in the gaming industry. So we're also trying to adapt them to the gaming experience.

RPG Site: Speaking to my background, I play all those action games, like Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden and Metal Gear Rising. Of course, obviously the Soulslikes, but my niche is more RPG stuff. I'm here as a Senior Editor at RPG Site, and obviously games like Dark Souls, games like Nioh, have a strong core RPG background. Can you speak to anything regarding the progression system for the main character and whatnot in Phantom Blade Zero?

S: Yeah, sure. As you can see in the demo, we have a lot of weapons and secondary weapons, so you can basically equip 2 main weapons and 2 secondary weapons. So, all these combinations of 4 weapons, along with 2 potions and 2 accessories, make a full build for your combat style. So you will have to cultivate and develop different builds for dealing with different circumstances, like different bosses and different elite enemies.

So collecting these items to make your build is the basic experience in the game, and also each weapon and each secondary weapon have its own upgrade systems, and more so have some evolution system which can give it new skills and new movements, and the items for these upgrades can be collected throughout the game. You also have your own skill tree.

But our point is, we are not going to do a leveling system, like you hit level 100 for HP or level 100 for your attack. We've done this a lot in our previous mobile games because we need to monetize that. But here, we wanted each step of progression to have meaning, to be more curated. Ideally we empower the player by giving them a new experience rather than just a basic power-up.

RPG Site: Yeah, I noticed that. I remember from when I played the demo at TGS, it was almost like a Metroidvania, or had Search Action style backtracking where you get the hammer and you can use it to break open new paths. How big of a focus is that in the level design? Will you be getting upgrades in like later levels that you can use in previous locations?

S: When it comes to the level design, we want to call the game a "Soulslite". So, like, we borrow something like this 3D-layered level design, but we don't push that too far. It will have just a little bit of flavor from a little bit of 3D level design, but it's easy to keep track of where you are. You won't get lost, and we have a map there.

RPG Site: I remember, It was like a tapestry style. I was a big fan of it!

S: Yeah - on the "metroidvania" stuff, you can always find new weapons and new secondary weapons. Some of them can be also used as a "key" for some previous spot, like fragile ground that needs a hammer to break down, but at that moment you first find it, you didn't have the hammer, but now I have it so I can go back for some secret.

RPG Site: So those secondary weapons that you can also use as, like, keys. Is that purely for the levels you find them in? Or can you find, like, let's say, I found a hammer in this side mission you're showcasing for the demo. Can you use it in previous levels to access areas that you wouldn't have been able to reach otherwise?

S: Yes. So, we have something like 10 different kinds of keys and locks. You can, let's say, even find some new weapons in the last level and then you realize you have seen something like this in the 1st level - and then you can go all the way back to the 1st level to find something new.

RPG Site: One thing I do want to ask about is, so you mentioned this is your 1st time developing on like a major console or PC-style game. How has it been dealing with multiplatform, PC and PlayStation 5 development?

S: It's actually a new and very difficult task for us as a newcomer to that industry. We have to thank PlayStation for giving us a lot of technical support. Because of that assistance, we are now running on the basic PlayStation 5 at 2K, 60PS. Ideally on Pro, a higher resolution, but still 60 FPS. That's our goal.

It's very important to get there; smooth performance on all these platforms and we're working hard on the team to deliver. Once again, this is where I give a massive "thank you" to Epic Games support and also PlayStation support. It's because of their assistance that we can do all of this.

RPG Site: Is this running UE5?

S: Yeah, Unreal Engine 5.

RPG Site: I was wondering, because this is probably one of the cleanest looking Unreal Engine 5 games I've seen on a console.

S: Thank you very much. We pay a lot of attention on how to optimize the game, and we also got very good support from the Epic team. Basically, now they have a big technical team in China, and we got direct support from them. In a similar vein with the PlayStation version, we get support from the PlayStation team as well. We also get some support from Nvidia to have some optimization for the nVidia GPUs, so yeah, I think we're lucky. We're lucky to have all these supporters.

RPG Site: The last question I have is that, is there anything else you'd like to say to - it must be weird to think - your international fans that are looking forward to the game now that there is a release date to look towards?

S: I personally want to thank everyone who supported us from the very beginning, since 2023 when we first showed our game off on a PlayStation State of Play. We didn't think we could go this far. The game we showed 2 years ago was just something small from a new team, like an indie game. But, as people support us, and we continue to prove ourselves with the demo playable at different events, we keep on receiving encouragement and support thanks to fans from all around the world. So, we'll keep on working hard and try to deliver a very solid game to everyone.

And also, I think our game is something you've never seen before. Although it has borrowed something from different classic genres, when they combine together, you will create something very fresh, and very new overall. By doing this, we want to create our own sub genre. 

Just like Bruce Lee 60, 70 years ago, he brought the Kung fu concept to Hollywood to create a new genre that we call a "kung fu movie". We don't call it action movie, right? "Kung fu movie", kind of a sub genre in the action movie genre.

We're also trying to bring some essence from Kung fu cultures and Kung fu movements, and trying to incorporate it with action games, and Souls games or Action RPGs to make our own subgenre - maybe "Kung fu action game", or "Wuxia action games", that will be our ultimate goal to deliver something you've never seen before. To leave a cultural impact.

RPG Site: Thank you for your time.

S: Yes, thank you very much.