“The original work is brilliant. You can’t really change the core identity of it without ruining that,” - Atlus on the balancing act of reimagining Persona 4 for Revival
From the wild success of Persona 5 to strong spin-offs, solid remakes, and even new IP success with Metaphor, Atlus has been on something of a roll. Even with Persona 6 on the horizon, the company still has eyes for its past, too - with the latest game set to get a glow up the classic ethereal Scooby Doo-alike Persona 4.
We sat down with Persona 4 Revival Executive Producer Kazuhisa Wada and Art Director Akane Kabayashi to discuss the challenging task of reimagining a total classic, the ambient vibes of CRT televisions, and lessons learned from Persona 3 Reload. Here’s our full chat:
RPG Site: I want to start by asking about the nature of… well, a funny thing about Persona is they're very much of their time, so this game has a real early-2000s energy to it. And obviously, the challenge when you're remaking something that has that sort of energy is it can be hard to recapture the feeling of 20 years ago. So I'm curious if that was something you were very aware of, and if you were, how you approached it as you were remaking and rethinking the game and its art?
Kazuhisa Wada: As you were saying, kind of the atmosphere of the era in which it was made is really important for each title, and it's the most important aspect that we try to look at and try to protect whenever we're creating one of these titles.
And we have this question like for every time we've made a remake, and for this one as well: If we're remaking it, do we update the era? Do we try to recreate the same vibe, but like in the modern era?
That came up for, like, a couple of seconds. Then - ‘No. We’ve got to leave it rooted in the era in which it was made’. CRT TVs are such an important part of the story, and this was at the cusp of when CRTs were starting to change into LED TVs, and the transition from analog broadcast networks to digital… I did think about how modern audiences might perceive that atmosphere. However, I felt it’s an interesting aspect, so the intention became letting players enjoy that era.
Kazuhisa Wada: As you were saying, kind of the atmosphere of the era in which it was made is really important for each title, and it's the most important aspect that we try to look at and try to protect whenever we're creating one of these titles.
And we have this question like for every time we've made a remake, and for this one as well: If we're remaking it, do we update the era? Do we try to recreate the same vibe, but like in the modern era?
That came up for, like, a couple of seconds. Then - ‘No. We’ve got to leave it rooted in the era in which it was made’. CRT TVs are such an important part of the story, and this was at the cusp of when CRTs were starting to change into LED TVs, and the transition from analog broadcast networks to digital… I did think about how modern audiences might perceive that atmosphere. However, I felt it’s an interesting aspect, so the intention became letting players enjoy that era.
RPG Site: Talk me through the decision-making process around losing the fixed camera angles for exploration. I feel like it really works. I feel like it makes Inaba feel more real.
Akane Kabayashi: I think overall Inaba is a pretty compact town. So we looked at all of the various places that need to be shown on camera, and we made a list and said, ‘Okay, which are the most important spots that we want to make a 360-degree camera for, and give you all that control?’ We chose which ones to deliver 360-degree, and which ones to focus on keeping with the fixed camera angle.
There was a lot of discussion amongst the team of which we kept with the fixed angles and which we changed. It was this really in-depth conversation that we had.
In terms of how we actually make it feel like - this is going to sound quite technical, but I pay close attention to things like camera distance; if it’s a bit too close or far away, the atmosphere… We want to get the balance just right.
Akane Kabayashi: I think overall Inaba is a pretty compact town. So we looked at all of the various places that need to be shown on camera, and we made a list and said, ‘Okay, which are the most important spots that we want to make a 360-degree camera for, and give you all that control?’ We chose which ones to deliver 360-degree, and which ones to focus on keeping with the fixed camera angle.
There was a lot of discussion amongst the team of which we kept with the fixed angles and which we changed. It was this really in-depth conversation that we had.
In terms of how we actually make it feel like - this is going to sound quite technical, but I pay close attention to things like camera distance; if it’s a bit too close or far away, the atmosphere… We want to get the balance just right.
RPG Site: I wanted to ask about the process to reach the actual content spread of the game. With P3 Reload, you guys made the decision to really focus on the original PlayStation 2 version. With this it’s a bit different in the sense that we’ve got content from Golden. How did you decide how far you wanted to go this time? Is the goal to have the ultimate version of the game that sort of replaces those versions, or almost a different version of the game?
Wada: This is more of a personal opinion, rather than an official stance of the company… but for me, when we add ‘R’ to a title, to me it feels like that is the final form of that Persona game. Like the ultimate edition, right? So that’s how I approached that.
Wada: This is more of a personal opinion, rather than an official stance of the company… but for me, when we add ‘R’ to a title, to me it feels like that is the final form of that Persona game. Like the ultimate edition, right? So that’s how I approached that.
RPG Site: In trying to make it Ultimate, how do you navigate fan expectation? These are characters, a story, a world that some people truly love. Every change will be scrutinized. So I imagine there has to be a give and take there - can you talk a little about that process?
Wada: Well, the original work is brilliant, and such an incredible achievement. You can’t really change the core identity of it without ruining that beautiful crème de la crème of it. But at the same time, because it was made so long ago, there are a lot of things that can be leveled up and standards raised in order for it to be played on modern hardware, as a modern game.
So upgrading the graphics, the cutscenes, the production quality, quality of life features… I think we can meet modern player expectations while still keeping the game as it is.
Kabayashi: To use a Japanese analogy, it’s like a Mochi (a Japanese rice cake). These have the outside, and the filling. The red bean paste filling on the inside, you don’t change that, but you change what’s surrounding it, right? That’s the analogy.
Wada: Well, the original work is brilliant, and such an incredible achievement. You can’t really change the core identity of it without ruining that beautiful crème de la crème of it. But at the same time, because it was made so long ago, there are a lot of things that can be leveled up and standards raised in order for it to be played on modern hardware, as a modern game.
So upgrading the graphics, the cutscenes, the production quality, quality of life features… I think we can meet modern player expectations while still keeping the game as it is.
Kabayashi: To use a Japanese analogy, it’s like a Mochi (a Japanese rice cake). These have the outside, and the filling. The red bean paste filling on the inside, you don’t change that, but you change what’s surrounding it, right? That’s the analogy.
RPG Site: I have to ask about the sauce the menus have - they’re amazing. What I love is that - being honest, there’s a cynical way of looking at them, which is ‘oh, stylish menus were very popular in P5, we’re going to backport those’. But honestly, here they have a really cool effect which is that you’ve used them to bake the TV of the theme game in even deeper. The battle transitions where you’re coming out of the TV are just super cool-feeling. How did you approach designing those elements this time?
Kabayashi: There’s several answers for several different UI elements. First of all, for the UI in general - it’s true that the game always had that TV theme baked into it, but it was a lot less pronounced. So we just looked at it and said - ‘we need to keep this because it’s such a core theme of the game, but how can we enhance it? How can we make it more, make it pop out?’
One of the things that we talked about a lot was to take all of the 2D assets and turn them into 3D assets. So then we’re thinking ‘okay, we have this kind of rainbow 2D image - what if we make it pop out in 3D?’ That was where the process and idea started for that. And then you also have the old-style TV dial knob on the battle UI… that was the first time I saw that sort of thing working.
In terms of the main menu, you have the main character’s face shot pop up. Persona 5 was the first time we did this, and it became such an iconic part of this series that we realized that if we want these remakes to stand on the same platform as our other games, we kind of had to do this. Otherwise, there would be a loss in the impact. At the same time, we don’t want it to be the same style exactly. We wanted to bring it back, but balance it a bit between the P5 style and that of the original P4.
Kabayashi: There’s several answers for several different UI elements. First of all, for the UI in general - it’s true that the game always had that TV theme baked into it, but it was a lot less pronounced. So we just looked at it and said - ‘we need to keep this because it’s such a core theme of the game, but how can we enhance it? How can we make it more, make it pop out?’
One of the things that we talked about a lot was to take all of the 2D assets and turn them into 3D assets. So then we’re thinking ‘okay, we have this kind of rainbow 2D image - what if we make it pop out in 3D?’ That was where the process and idea started for that. And then you also have the old-style TV dial knob on the battle UI… that was the first time I saw that sort of thing working.
In terms of the main menu, you have the main character’s face shot pop up. Persona 5 was the first time we did this, and it became such an iconic part of this series that we realized that if we want these remakes to stand on the same platform as our other games, we kind of had to do this. Otherwise, there would be a loss in the impact. At the same time, we don’t want it to be the same style exactly. We wanted to bring it back, but balance it a bit between the P5 style and that of the original P4.
RPG Site: After playing a little, what’s clear to me is that while P3 Reload was great, I think there’s clearly a step up here in terms of execution. What were the lessons from Reload that allowed you to take a step up?
Wada: I’d say there are two major points. The first is about the overall direction. When we did Persona 3 Reload, we saw that many people enjoyed it and had positive reactions. That gave us comfort and confidence - like, okay, the approach we’ve taken is correct and we can feel confident in continuing to pursue it with Persona 4. So that was the first major takeaway.
The second is that P3R was the first game that we developed in Unreal Engine, so we were still learning a lot about how to develop in it even as we were working on it. The little bells and whistles, the small features that we were getting used to, and even just the kind of structure we have on the development team… we had to figure out how to make it work. We then took all of those lessons and brought them to Persona 4 Revival, and really leveled up to make it even greater.
Wada: I’d say there are two major points. The first is about the overall direction. When we did Persona 3 Reload, we saw that many people enjoyed it and had positive reactions. That gave us comfort and confidence - like, okay, the approach we’ve taken is correct and we can feel confident in continuing to pursue it with Persona 4. So that was the first major takeaway.
The second is that P3R was the first game that we developed in Unreal Engine, so we were still learning a lot about how to develop in it even as we were working on it. The little bells and whistles, the small features that we were getting used to, and even just the kind of structure we have on the development team… we had to figure out how to make it work. We then took all of those lessons and brought them to Persona 4 Revival, and really leveled up to make it even greater.
RPG Site: And lastly, we've mentioned earlier how people love these characters. So, for you guys - who in Persona 4 do you like best, or identify most with. Who’s your character?
Wada: My favourite is Chie-chan. As for characters I’m a bit like… I don’t think there are any, actually?
Kabayashi: My favourite character is Yukiko, and I think my personality is quite similar to hers. She’s a bit bashful when she meets somebody new, but if I start laughing, I’m going to have this loud laugh…! So yeah!
Wada: What about you?
RPG Site: Oh, I think probably Chie. I had a friend growing up who was a lot like her - tomboy, extremely boisterous. I grew up with a Chie and married a Yukiko [laughs]. As for me, I’m a bit hot-headed, so it might have to be Kanji for that reason…
Wada: [laughs] I knew it the moment I saw you!
Wada: My favourite is Chie-chan. As for characters I’m a bit like… I don’t think there are any, actually?
Kabayashi: My favourite character is Yukiko, and I think my personality is quite similar to hers. She’s a bit bashful when she meets somebody new, but if I start laughing, I’m going to have this loud laugh…! So yeah!
Wada: What about you?
RPG Site: Oh, I think probably Chie. I had a friend growing up who was a lot like her - tomboy, extremely boisterous. I grew up with a Chie and married a Yukiko [laughs]. As for me, I’m a bit hot-headed, so it might have to be Kanji for that reason…
Wada: [laughs] I knew it the moment I saw you!